in Search
Welcome to Neopoleon - Sign in | Join | Help
Navigation: Home | Forums | Galleries

Microsoft should drop XAML like a two-dollar herpes-infested whore

Ever since the PDC, I've been hearing stuff like this about XAML:

- Why didn't Microsoft run with [insert XML application here] instead of XAML? Why did they create a brand new markup language?

- Why doesn't Microsoft switch to [insert XML application here] instead of XAML?

The first item doesn't shock me too much. I listened to quite a few conversations at the PDC over whether or not Microsoft should have just used SVG. It makes sense to question the choice of markup language, and the question of why Microsoft chose to create its own is a good one.

However, what's done is done. I rather like XAML. After about three minutes with it, I felt at home. In fact as soon as I saw it in action during the PDC keynote, I felt like I "got it." It makes sense to me. But, that isn't what matters.

The situation as of February, 2004, is that XAML is integrated up to its little angle-bracket neck now. Take it for a spin, and you'll experience the satisfyingly uber-tight coupling between the language and the plumbing with which it interfaces.

So, XAML is good, and XAML is what Microsoft chose.

This leads to the second item in the list - the one in which people suggest that Microsoft switch to [XML application X].

All I have to say is this: Are you completely out of your freaking skull?

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on [XML application X], but I don't need to be in this case.

Take XUL, for instance. I've encountered people who've suggested that XUL be used in the place of XAML, and it blows my mind.

The first reaction I have is that the person making the suggestion hasn't:

1. Used XAML

2. Used Longhorn

3. Read a three minute XAML 101 tutorial

4. Seriously considered what problems XUL would solve - in other words, why, in terms of technical merit, it should be used

It drives me nuts because the suggestion is political. Screw the fact that XAML is the perfect hand for a Longhorn shaped glove - it isn't open source, Mozilla something, BSD this and that, and so on.

I'm not saying that XUL is bad - I've used some kick-ass apps that take advantage of XUL. But, XUL has its own uses in its own domain, and that domain isn't the one currently handled by XAML.

Then, beyond the issue of a complete and total lack of a good technical reason to switch to [XML application X], think about what's being suggested:

Rip out XAML and retrofit the system with [XML application X]

All Microsoft cheerleading that I do aside, you should be spanked, long and hard, and preferably with a porcupine that's been coated in cyanide.

Just because you don't like the fact that Microsoft created a new markup language, you want to rip it out and replace it with something else.

Did you stop for even a moment to consider what a monumental task that would be? Why don't you just ask for someone to repaint the Empire State Building? Or have it moved a block over? Or transported to Sweden?

For crying out loud, why don't you just ask for the pancake in the middle of the stack?

XAML, my dear friend, my dear future gas-pumper of America friend, is a real language at this point. It's in its infancy, but the birth is quite over, the language was born a while back, and it’s taking its first few steps.

I have an idea to give you some perspective: Do you have any young children? What do you think it would take to flip-flop their genders at this point? Has it always bothered you that Timmy turned out a boy? Why don't you just fix that?

Finally, let's just think about the arrogance of the suggestion.

I want to rip XUL out of Mozilla and replace it with XAML simply because XUL isn't a Microsoft product - how does that make you feel?

Published Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:31 PM by Rory

Filed Under:

Comments

 

Jason Mauss said:

One thing you didn't mention that I've noticed over time too is - the people that make these suggestions (rip out XAML for [xml application]) are usually pretty n00b developers that have never written systems of any major size (not just 10k LOC apps but 500K+ LOC apps) and don't really understand what it takes to do what they're suggesting. It's the "n00b ignorance" and yeah, it pisses me off too.
February 11, 2004 6:45 PM
 

Sean Gerety said:

Ahhh Rory,

Once again you have put things in fresh new light. I've heard and made the SVG comparison. And I thought "Wow, I can leverage my SVG knowledge to quickly ramp up on XAML". I believe that most of these people are just "sport bitching" (definition: Bitching just for the sport because they've got no real reason)
February 11, 2004 6:57 PM
 

Michael said:

Finally someone who says what I've been thinking all along. XAML is great. In fact I believe that the investments into it are appropriate, justified and right.

Those who want to rip it out for XML Application X just don't really understand its features, capabilities and concepts. By my opinion it could be a very powerful replacement for even PostScript.

My opinion on these discussions: Lets see which concepts are still alive in say 10 or 15 years. I believe XAML will - XUL will not. And thats not because of Microsoft being behind it.
February 11, 2004 7:06 PM
 

Rory said:

"I've heard and made the SVG comparison. And I thought 'Wow, I can leverage my SVG knowledge to quickly ramp up on XAML'."

And that makes perfect sense. I think it's also what DonXML did.

His SVG -> XAML clock example [http://donxml.com/allthingstechie/archive/2004/01/06/281.aspx] is a good demonstration of carrying over knowledge and applying it to a new domain.

Also, similar as the languages are, even if Microsoft *had* run with something else, that something else wouldn't have remained pure - With XAML, I'm used to directly hitting .NET types and their members. I think it would have been a bit clumsy to have tried to accomplish that kind of integration with another markup language. It's nice and fine that XML is eXtensible, but there are times when it would just create problems. In this case, you couldn't even carry your Longhorn-specific SVG to another system because there are plenty of non-Longhorn platforms for which there is SVG support. At that point, you've sacrificed the tight integration of XAML/.NET for..... what?

Plus, in using XAML, Microsoft was able to avoid all the politics that would have been involved with using another markup - had XUL actually been used and extended, would the XUL community remain quiet about it? No - it'd be J++ all over again with people crying "bloody murder."

XAML really was, in my opinion, the best way to go for technical *and* political reasons.
February 11, 2004 7:17 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Am I the only one in this 6-billion-people planet against XAML, SVG, XUL and anything that ressembles XML for a UI language?

What is wrong with you guys?

Take the keywords, drop the sickening masturbative fixation with the markup tags you all have and create a beautiful yet simple language to impulse the world of computing to new frontiers.

And get over it!

Button
- forecolor = black
- backcolor = white
- text = "We all suck!"
End
February 11, 2004 7:36 PM
 

Rory said:

"Am I the only one in this 6-billion-people planet against XAML, SVG, XUL and anything that ressembles XML for a UI language?"

Well... Maybe.

<shrug>

I don't know. We should take a vote.

"What is wrong with you guys?"

I personally find it easier to create a UI using a language that was at least partially designed to do just that.

I've always hated coding UIs by hand in the traditional fashions - HTML was the first little bit of relief I experienced from that, and, for the first time in years, I found a reason to put away drag 'n drop UI builders.

I'm not going to say it's "easier" to create a UI by hand with a markup language, but I will say that I prefer it. Regardless, XAML will have the usual drag 'n drop UI building tools built onto it.

On the plus(?) side, people who hate XAML/markup can still code their UIs like it's 1999.
February 11, 2004 7:41 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

XAML1 = markup
XAML2 = no markup

Perfect world for both:
You can code it if you want
You can drag and drop it if you want
Visual designers will be available for both

Now:
You can easily read what you've done (#1 sucks)
You can easily code it by hand (#1 sucks)
You can easily drag and drop (indifferent)
You can easily incorporate it in your language of choice (#1 sucks)
Less bandwidth consumption (#1 sucks)

Try to find ONE AND ONLY ONE disadvantage of option #2

I dare you!
February 11, 2004 7:48 PM
 

DonXML Demsak said:

"Take XUL, for instance. I've encountered people who've suggested that XUL be used in the place of XAML, and it blows my mind."

Take XUL, please take XUL and all the XUL Bigots and .....

I'm going to censor myself, in order to prevent another flame war on Rory's site, which will eventually engulf my site and a bunch of others.
February 11, 2004 8:03 PM
 

Phil Scott said:

RebelGeekz:
#1: Easier for microsoft to write XML and parse XML
#2: Have to come up with custom parsing engine. Every developer that wants to create a product to help create XAML has to come up with a custom output writer.

Every language / runtime out there has an XML parser. It is simply simplier to create tools to work with XAML that way. Who in their right mind is going to be coding XAML by hand in the future?

Hey, could someone smarter than me submit this to slashdot. I'm pretty bored and would love to see the comments from the non-seal bashers.
February 11, 2004 8:16 PM
 

Rory said:

Rebel -

"Try to find ONE AND ONLY ONE disadvantage of option #2"

I don't like option #2 - that's enough of a disadvantage for me.

What do I win?
February 11, 2004 8:24 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Could you explain your points of why you don't like a better solution to your problem?
Or at least consider it for a mano-a-mano comparison?

Maybe you don't like it because:

1. It makes your job easier?
2. It makes easier to read/write/design your applications?
3. It runs faster than a parsed/interpreted solution?
4. It is future proof?
5. It allows everybody in the world to easily design UIs?
6. It will move your job to India?
7. It just breaks your balls that you didn't come up with such a brilliant idea?
8. It is so simple that you can't believe it is for real?
9. If it is not hard to do it is not for real programmers?
10. Just because you are a dickhead?

I incline myself to believe it is because of #10
February 11, 2004 8:54 PM
 

Rory said:

"Try to find ONE AND ONLY ONE disadvantage of option #2"

I have another advantage in spite of the fact that it isn't what you asked for :)

XAML makes UIs interchangeable between languages. Not necessarily something that people are going to be doing every day, but still pretty neat.
February 11, 2004 8:54 PM
 

Rory said:

Rebel -

"10. Just because you are a dickhead?"

Wow :)

I *am* a dickhead, but it doesn't have to do with my reasons for liking XAML.

The interesting thing about this is that the two methods (procedural/markup) aren't exclusive. You can still code your UI in C# (or whatever) if that's what you really want to do.

- *OR* -

Or, or, or, or, -> OR <-

or...

<whole line of dancing women wearing shirts that say "OR" on them>

OR!

You can do it in XAML. Nobody's forcing you to switch.

They might ignore you and your "THE END IS NIGH!" sign, but that's not the same thing as laying down the law.
February 11, 2004 9:00 PM
 

Joe Grenier said:

Name calling RebelGeekz, that's the way to go! Maybe next you could hold your breath until you turn blue (please, please, wouldya?).

By the way, how would you indicate hierarchical relationships (elements containing other elements containing other elements...) in your fantastically simple UI language? I find XML/XAML/XHTML to be extremely intuitive in this regard. I also don't have a difficult time reading the average XML based language. But for those who do find it difficult to parse XML with their brains, Phil makes a great point, it will be remarkably easy for me to write a tool to manipulate an XML based solution.

Look, I made my point and didn't even have to resort to self-aggrandizing infantilism! Try it sometine.
February 11, 2004 9:07 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

"You can still code your UI in C#"

The only problem with that, my little friend, is that the procedural way in C# (and VB and all .NET languages by default) will suck soooooo bad that XAML will look like a walk in the park, and everybody in this world and others will praise XAML as the best thing since cheap whores.

Plain sad...

PS. Where da fuck are the innovative minds in this world?
February 11, 2004 9:10 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Mr. Grenier, I am not name-calling for the sake of insulting anybody, just for the fun of it. It just adds more sparks to the post.

Anyway, if your peanut-sized brain can not imagine hierarchical structures in such an easy language, you should give it a try in my blog to enlighten your life a notch.

I can give you right now TEN different ways of representing not only hierarchies with a simpler format, if you need to know.

Regards
February 11, 2004 9:15 PM
 

Carl Franklin said:

I think Rebel's arguments here really show that he's on the ball. In fact, I think he's brilliant. Even if you take reasons 6 through 9 by themselves, they are representative of the intelligence and thought that went into his post:

> 6. It will move your job to India?

A brilliant insight. Rory, do you suppose they have a .NET Rocks! show in India?

> 7. It just breaks your balls that you didn't come up with such a brilliant idea?

Now there's intelligence for you. Not only is Rory a dickhead, but he's stupid for not agreeing with Rebel. Brilliant.

> 8. It is so simple that you can't believe it is for real?

Again, his insights into Rory's IQ here are absolutely amazing. He has single-handedly deduced (with no help from any of his friends) that Rory is a dolt who can't understand the simple elegance of his solution. Someone should nominate him for the Nobel prize, don't you think?

> 9. If it is not hard to do it is not for real programmers?

Now, this is just an amazingly logical deduction. How did he know that Rory goes for the most difficult technologies. That's why he embraces ASP.NET, becuase it's so darned difficult to write.

> 10. Just because you are a dickhead?

And this is the actual reason that Rebel has put forth as his final argument. Why isn't this guy an MVP???
February 11, 2004 9:17 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Now with Mr. Scott:

"Easier for microsoft" doesn't mean easier for the world!

"Custom parsing engine" ???
What do you think every single language has to do with the XML produced by XAML?

What Java, Python, Ruby, C#, VB need to do to understand XAML ?

They have to parse it and interpret it in their own way.

And having an easier language doesn't mean it can not be converted from/to XML for sharing.

"Who in their right mind is going to be coding XAML by hand in the future?"

The same people that coded one billion web pages in html by hand !!!

Ask professional web developers if they use drag and drop!

Give me a break!
February 11, 2004 9:18 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Whoa Carl!
That was fast!

First off, the funny nature of this site makes posts like this one have rebuttals like the one I posted. Name-calling included.

I take all the flames I deserve, no sweat.
February 11, 2004 9:26 PM
 

Joe Grenier said:

Wow, I only got my intelligence insulted. Rory gets to be a full-fledged dickhead. I guess I'll have to work harder...
February 11, 2004 9:28 PM
 

Rory said:

"I can give you right now TEN different ways of representing not only hierarchies with a simpler format, if you need to know."

Cool.

And if I wanted to write my own custom tools for handling these custom methods, then am I also going to have to start from scratch in building ten different parsing tools from the ground up?

Actually, I guess I could start with System.IO.StreamReader, so it isn't *totally* from scratch.

But I can just pull XAML using an XmlTextReader if that's what I *really* want to do (but how stupid is that?).

I like your idea, Rebel. It smacks of nostalgia for the good old days when men were men and every little coding task required several hundred lines of build-up just to get started.

What's *really* hot is that all this menial coding will probably be a great argument for offshoring of the work.

Yeah. I'm liking this more and more...
February 11, 2004 9:28 PM
 

Rory said:

Joe -

"Wow, I only got my intelligence insulted. Rory gets to be a full-fledged dickhead."

I'm really sorry about that - Rebel doesn't have much in the way of manners.

Joe Grenier, on this, the eleventh day of the month known as "February" in the year two-thousand and four, I hereby declare thee a dickhead ;)

If Rebel forgot to call anybody else a dickhead, then let me know and I'll see what I can do. I'm sure he'll get around to it sooner or later, though.
February 11, 2004 9:31 PM
 

Scott said:

Yeah, pussies like RebelGeekz probably use C++ instead of C and Assembly.

Don't even get me started on the .NET whores and their flatuant mothers.
February 11, 2004 9:33 PM
 

Scott said:

Wow, RebelGeekz is right. My posts DO look more intellegent and "sparky" if I throw in random insults. My whites are whiter too, Thanks RebelGeekz!
February 11, 2004 9:34 PM
 

Joe Grenier said:

"Joe Grenier, on this, the eleventh day of the month known as "February" in the year two-thousand and four, I hereby declare thee a dickhead ;)"

I don't know what to say, this is so unexpected. I'd like to thank all the other dickheads out there who made this all possible.(sniff, sob)

Actually, in light of RebelGeekz pronouncement, I'm now a Stupid Dickhead! Eat my dust Rory!!
February 11, 2004 9:39 PM
 

Dave said:

**boggle**
People still write HTML by hand? I don't mean tweaking around the edges of something you built in $FAVORITE_GUI_TOOL, or cleaning up some of the worst of what VS.NET generates (which sucks, but since my users are overwhelming using IE6 and overwhelming have broadband, I'm not worrying too much about it), but actually writing large amounts of HTML by hand? Yikes.

Next you'll be telling me that you create Windows Forms UIs directly from code instead of using the WinForms designer or you write large Windows applications in 100% unmanaged C++ or write large web applications in PHP or participate in some other masochistic activity.
February 11, 2004 9:39 PM
 

Rory said:

Joe -

"Actually, in light of RebelGeekz pronouncement, I'm now a Stupid Dickhead! Eat my dust Rory!!"

Nothing I do for you is ever good enough, Joe!

I'm tired of being outdone by people who know adjectives. I was able to come up with "dickhead" (only because I copied it from Rebel), but modifying the noun with another word is just right over my head.

I swear. Life - she is so cruel at times.
February 11, 2004 9:48 PM
 

Rory said:

Dave -

"People still write HTML by hand?"

I do... There are times when it's actually easier for me to do things by hand than to rely on a designer, and I'm not just saying this because I'm harcore l337 (or however it's (mis)spelled). I'm *not* a notepad/vi/emacs coder - I like my intellisense and cute little windows.

Where C/VB/whatever are concerned, I totally agree with you, but I have yet to use an HTML designer that does what I want it to.

If the tools were better, I'd use 'em, but they're not, so I don't (at least nothing I've used).

And doing XAML by hand doesn't bother me either, although I *would* prefer a designer. A designer for XAML would be easier for MS to do than HTML, though, since XAML *is* XML, and XAML is also part of a stack that MS controls which means that they'll be able to integrate the holy crap out of it with their tools. In other words, a XAML designer could (and probably will) totally kick ass.
February 11, 2004 9:53 PM
 

Rob said:


Interesting thread. I like how it deteriorated into name-calling so quickly. Good break from an afternoon of coding...coding what...coding XAML of course. 8-).

This should spark you kids even more. Say for instance that Microsoft had chosen XUL or SVG instead of XAML, imagine the cries and howls of foul from the open sores community about Microsoft trying to co-opt the specifications for their own evil ends......my work here is done.
February 11, 2004 10:10 PM
 

Joe Grenier said:

All kidding aside, I'm still waiting for my hierarchy examples. I realize that this is beyond RebelGeekz comprehension, but I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass, I was actually interested to know how someone else would solve the problem. You see, I don't rule out the possibility that there are better ways than Microsoft's, I just need to see more than 6 lines of a made up language to know if it could solve the problems I need solved.

This is why I like the .NET communities I've come in contact with. Most people seem to be trying to help other developers solve their problems. The slashdotters, on the other hand, seem intent on proving they're the smartest guy in the room.
February 11, 2004 10:19 PM
 

Tim said:

"XAML makes UIs interchangeable between languages. Not necessarily something that people are going to be doing every day, but still pretty neat."

So a program done in C# for Windows would look the same as one done in C++ for KDE? or are you talking one done in Navajo can be displayed in Klingon?
February 11, 2004 10:19 PM
 

Rory said:

"So a program done in C# for Windows would look the same as one done in C++ for KDE?"

Allow me to qualify:

XAML makes UIs interchangeable between .NET languages.
February 11, 2004 10:25 PM
 

Rory said:

Joe -

"I'm still waiting for my hierarchy examples."

I wouldn't mind seeing them, either.

I never *expected* Rebel to produce them, but I'm curious all the same.

I second your desire to see the samples, then.
February 11, 2004 10:26 PM
 

Tim said:

"Allow me to qualify:

XAML makes UIs interchangeable between .NET languages."

That would be clarify.
So what's to whine over? MS defines something to use with MS development? Good God, call the FTC!

February 11, 2004 11:45 PM
 

Rory said:

Tim -

"That would be clarify."

The first definition listed for the word "qualify" in Mr. Webster's online dictionary:

"1 a : to reduce from a general to a particular or restricted form"

This is exactly what I did.

"So what's to whine over?"

Read the post - what's to whine over is the suggestion (or barrage of suggestions) that MS swap XAML out for something else. Thought I'd point out why this is not such a hot idea (although if you missed it the first time, I don't see how this is going to make more sense to you).
February 11, 2004 11:53 PM
 

Darren Winsper said:

"open sores community"
Stooping to the level of those you are criticising rarely strengthens your argument.
February 11, 2004 11:58 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Look guys,

It was not my intention to offend anybody here, if I did so please accept my apologies.
(hey, it worked for janet jackson!)

Life goes on and I bet my ass I will end up coding XAML like a dickhead too ;-)

No harm done Rory, I will keep reading your blog 'til the end of my days...
February 12, 2004 12:01 AM
 

Scott said:

show us your boob RebelGeekz and we'll consider it. ;)

re: people hand coding HTML. I do it all the time, the Visual Designer in Visual Studio has some issues (intellisense is the least of it's problems). So I end up coding all my code behind and objects in the VS IDE and creating my ASPX/ASCX pages in EditPlus (http://www.editplus.com), it supports syntax highlighting (user definable) and has a "code snippets" window that holds a lot of the method calls for the framework and ASP.NET tags.

Plus personally I don't want to shell out $$$ for the IDE to use at home (at work someone ELSE pays for it, the best way to get it!) and I'm not comfortable installing my work copy of the at home. So I use EditPlus, coupled with NAnt, exclusively at home. ph335 m3!!

I might install the Whidbey bits I get at DevDays at home since there's no WAY I'm contaminating my workstation with alpha/beta code. I'm still running Windows 2K Prof. at work because that's what our servers are running. Paranoid much?
February 12, 2004 1:24 AM
 

Michael said:

Rory, are you still taking requests? Can you declare me a dickhead too?
February 12, 2004 2:06 AM
 

DonXML Demsak said:

heck, I hand code all my stuff, in zeroes and ones. Everything else is just some funky abstraction goo that some university professor came up with and will never work out in the real world. And sometimes when things get really tough, I run out of ones, and have to use all zeroes.

DonXML Demsak
February 12, 2004 2:40 AM
 

Scott said:

I just recently started hand coding due to my arthritis and eyestrain, before I just manipulated the capacitors in the ram using static electricity. I'd shuffle around the shag carpet until I built up enough charge to write a program. I had to wear rubber underpants to make sure I could control the charge.

Don't even get me started on the tiny magnets I'd use to flip the inodes when I wanted to save. That's how I got the eyestrain!
February 12, 2004 2:54 AM
 

chrootstrap said:

"heck, I hand code all my stuff, in zeroes and ones. Everything else is just some funky abstraction goo that some university professor came up with and will never work out in the real world. And sometimes when things get really tough, I run out of ones, and have to use all zeroes. "
Wait; I thought Auden Carrasco had patented Binary Energy already? ;)

February 12, 2004 4:27 AM
 

Tristan said:

I wanna stick up for Rebel. This is from one of the most successful development languages ever created, so he must be on to something:

Begin VB.Form myForm
BorderStyle = 5 'Sizable ToolWindow
Caption = "Hello World"
ClientHeight = 4215
ClientLeft = 2775
ClientTop = 3720
ClientWidth = 10665
MaxButton = 0 'False
MinButton = 0 'False
ShowInTaskbar = 0 'False
Begin VB.TextBox txtMyText
BackColor = &H00D7F5FF&
BeginProperty Font
Name = "Arial"
Size = 9.75
EndProperty
Height = 945
Left = 105
Locked = -1 'True
Text = "Hello World!"
End
End


Anyone wanna take a guess where I cribbed this from?

By the way, I like XAML because I feel slightly less stupid saying it outloud then when I say XUL, but maybe that's just me.
February 12, 2004 4:45 AM
 

Roberto J. Dohnert said:

Rory, Rory, Rory

Its not Open Source and these guys are tired of "MS" lock in. They are tired of being locked in by Microsoft with the OS and they are in essence buying a car with the hood welded shut. Dont you know by now, Dont you get it. I thought you were smart Open Source will save all. Its like jesus Christ for computers, Open Source will cure whatever ails ya.

DOWN WITH MICROSOFT

Im being sarcastic by the way. I like XAML and I personally think its the right thing that Microsoft has done in awhile. Besides have you tried coding in XUL, to be quite blunt i would rather pleasure myself with a cheese grater. The documentation is poor and if you ask for assistance from the Mozilla community the first thing you hear is, You need to learn how to program. I think its just new and when MONO starts reverse engineering it to work on Linux and OS X you will hear a bunch of the complaints stop. Im not knocking Open Source or anything Linux, BSD or the GPL. I have seen some neat stuff come from those guys to. But to them MS is the enemy and boo on anyone that says Microsoft makes good poducts or that they come out with innovative ideas. Try telling someone in the Linux community that Windows Server 2003 is a good OS then you will see the tempers fly.
February 12, 2004 4:53 AM
 

chrootstrap said:

"I like XAML because I feel slightly less stupid saying it outloud then when I say XUL"
Are you the gatekeeper? ;-)
February 12, 2004 5:15 AM
 

chrootstrap said:

"Besides have you tried coding in XUL, to be quite blunt i would rather pleasure myself with a cheese grater. The documentation is poor and if you ask for assistance from the Mozilla community the first thing you hear is, You need to learn how to program."
Eh?
http://www.mozilla.org/catalog/architecture/xul/
http://www.xulplanet.com/
http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/xulref/

Just hacking around with how things look is really simple.

I've tried doing GUI programming in Mozilla with XUL and if you know JavaScript and XML it's really quite easy. For example:
http://www.geocities.com/chrootstrap/easily_extending_mozilla.html
February 12, 2004 5:18 AM
 

Rory said:

"Are you the gatekeeper?"

That's so funny - I was thinking the same thing.

In fact, when I read it, it was like a reflex: I instantly thought, "Because I am the Key Master!"
February 12, 2004 7:03 AM
 

Marcus Frödin said:

Long time reader, first time writer...

Are there still people not coding HTML by hand? I mean the code that all these visual designers produce is just godawful. Even the Dreamweaver has problems, although it's by a longshot the best visual editor yet.

But this is from a guy who still uses PHP occasionally (due to the fact that it's actually really, really easy) and do unmanaged apps. In C++. Golly.
February 12, 2004 9:43 AM
 

Mo said:

I can't speak for anybody else, but my take was: "Why didn't Microsoft try and work with the XUL guys from the beginning and evolve it into something that is beneficial to everybody?", which isn't at all the same as "just use XUL" or "drop XAML right now and use XUL".

The problem you have now is that there's this thing.. and it's called XAML. And although you guys are talking about it and showing demos and so on and so forth, all the development is done by Microsoft. Now, it'd be unfair of me to say that you're not soliciting for opinions, because weblogs all over the place have got XAML guys asking for input. But the fact remains that community-built standards didn't come about that way.

Fine, stick with XAML, nobody's going to hate you for it. Just make sure that.. when it's ready, you submit it to the W3C and encourage its use for things besides Longhorn apps.
February 12, 2004 10:00 AM
 

Phil Scott said:

I was stuck in a hotel last night. Man, I've got a whole line of insults lined up for slinging shit on the internet and I missed the internerd biggest pocket protector fight. Oh well.

Anyways, as to coding XAML vs coding HTML by hand: HTML sucks my nuts. It is poorly conceived for doing graphical stuff. CSS is alright, but every browser has it's nuances. Plus it was grafted on after the fact, never a clean design there

Now with XAML, since MS won't be adding decent GUI design into an existing technology, I think it is safe to say we won't be living in a world of "XAML hacks" like we do with CSS or markup hell like we have now with CSS.

Saying you are going to use XAML by hand is like saying you are always going to put forms together like this:

TextBox t = new TextBox();
t.Location = new Location(5, 5);
t.Size = new Size(100, 25);
t.Text = "Hello, World";

I trust MS is going have a nice designer, and with an open format for the UI that's not really tied into the source code, it opens the door for competitors to produce some cool tools too.

Humph, I'm just miffed that Tristan beat me to the VB6 joke.
February 12, 2004 12:48 PM
 

Joeri Sebrechts said:

This post raises a number of issues in my mind.

First of all, you're right. Microsoft is completely free to invent favourite_new_ui_language and implement it. It's a free world.

However.

We're talking about a language which will be used to build net/web apps here. The need for standardisation of this language is obvious. I absolutely reject a language for web applications that only works in/with MS software. So, I won't back xaml until it is standardised as a W3C royalty-free language (the W3C being the only web standards body I trust to release royalty free standards without undue political influence).

Xaml, and I admit I haven't studied it in depth, seems to me a reinvention of what xul already did (though its difficult to get a grab on the which-was-first timeframe with microsoft being so secretive about internal development). What exactly does xaml do that xul doesn't? Now, I admit readily that xul is not a standardised language, and that it has its flaws. But if microsoft really wants to stop being seen as the evil empire they need to start cooperating with the community. It would have been of immeasurable PR value had they approached the mozilla team and said "we want to cooperate with you to make xul an all purpose W3C-standardised ui language that we can use in longhorn". And even if xul is not sufficient, they could have designed xaml in public, under a w3c charter. Instead, we got another proprietary xml dialect, likely covered by patents. The world has enough xml dialects already.

In other words, you can't complain people are saying "same old microsoft" when the visible behaviour IS "same old microsoft".
February 12, 2004 2:39 PM
 

Runar Jordahl said:

"Why don't you just ask for someone to repaint the Empire State Building? Or have it moved a block over? Or transported to Sweden?"

In the following book you will actually find out how to move the Empire State Building abroad:
Unbuilding http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395454255/categoricalgeome/104-7645142-3715155
February 12, 2004 3:30 PM
 

Curt Hagenlocher said:

"We're talking about a language which will be used to build net/web apps here."

Bzzzt!! Wrong answer. We're talking about a language which will be used to build *Windows* apps. While it superficially looks a bit like HTML (y'know, it's got the angle brackets and all), the file extension it should really be compared to is .rc. I don't think that anyone at Microsoft thinks that XAML will cause HTML/XHTML/CSS to wither and die.
February 12, 2004 4:24 PM
 

Curt Hagenlocher said:

An example of RebelGeeks' ideas for eliminating XML can be found at

http://geekswithblogs.net/rebelgeekz/archive/2004/02/08/1913.aspx

I don't think that we need fear a genocide of tags anytime soon.
February 12, 2004 4:27 PM
 

Rory said:

Joeri -

"It would have been of immeasurable PR value had they approached the mozilla team and said "we want to cooperate with you to make xul an all purpose W3C-standardised ui language that we can use in longhorn"."

So, you think Microsoft should have done this as a PR move?

*That's* really going to help the technology.

Frankly, because I'm someone who's going to be working with this stuff, I'm quite happy that Microsoft chose technical merit over image.
February 12, 2004 4:53 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

Yes Curt, fear tag genocide

Search for binary xml in the w3c specs, a proposition backed by 30 of the greatest and most powerful companies in the world like IBM, SUN, NOKIA, ORACLE and many more.

Guess which one is the only one that doesn't like the idea of dumping xml since it has invested so much in it?

Need a hint?
February 12, 2004 5:05 PM
 

Rory said:

"Guess which one is the only one that doesn't like the idea of dumping xml since it has invested so much in it?"

Baskin and Robbins Ice-cream?

That company that makes The Clapper?

Wait - the Mafia! Am I right?

You're holding us in total suspense here, Rebel - out with it!
February 12, 2004 5:11 PM
 

Curt Hagenlocher said:

RebelGeekz, I don't think you've actually read the proposal for Binary XML if you think that it involves eliminating the tags the way you've done in your example. It involves *tokenizing* the tags so that they occupy less space during transmission. In your example, you just replace the tags with a line number which (for an arbitrary schema) can't possibly map back onto the element identity associated with the data.

Furthermore, Binary XML doesn't supercede or replace XML. It complements it by defining a standard whereby XML can be compressed.

Think of Binary XML as a "ZIP" format for XML, if you will. It's basically lossless compression. But you'd no more work with this format directly than you'd edit a text file in a compressed format.
February 12, 2004 5:14 PM
 

Tim said:

"The first definition listed for the word "qualify" in Mr. Webster's online dictionary:

"1 a : to reduce from a general to a particular or restricted form"

This is exactly what I did."
You are correct. I apologize. I was thinking of
3 a : to fit by training, skill, or ability for a special purpose
I should not do responses in a hurry.

"Read the post - what's to whine over is the suggestion (or barrage of suggestions) that MS swap XAML out for something else. Thought I'd point out why this is not such a hot idea (although if you missed it the first time, I don't see how this is going to make more sense to you)."
I did, and it does. But I got a different meaning out of it. I read that everyone that doesn't like XAML is afraid it will be pushed by Microsoft as an industry standard, when XUL is already there. I don't know anything about XAML. One of your comments prompted a question, which you answered. The answer leads me to believe that you are again correct. Taking XAML out of .NET now would be huge, near impossible, and doesn't benefit anyone. Crying that XAML exists and should be removed is pointless.
February 12, 2004 5:17 PM
 

Casey Marshall said:

No no no!!! You're all wrong! All UI should be configured with Xdefaults!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation! You were supposed to laugh :)
February 12, 2004 5:20 PM
 

Rory said:

"I read that everyone that doesn't like XAML is afraid it will be pushed by Microsoft as an industry standard, when XUL is already there."

OK - I see where you're coming from.

Yeah - that isn't really my take :) I'm more concerned about the people who want to gut the Empire State Building because they didn't like the color of the bathroom tiles...
February 12, 2004 6:15 PM
 

Tim said:

Rory,
I don't think they reaaly care about the color of the tile, but they complain about it because the building manager decided on that color, without consulting the world. Better still, after consulting the world, the manager must gut the building at his own expense.

Casey,
Xdefaults!?!? NO, NO! The only acceptable UI change is to PS1 in the .profile.
(You were also supposed to laugh).
February 12, 2004 7:10 PM
 

Rory said:

Tim -

"...they complain about it because the building manager decided on that color, without consulting the world."

Fortunately, the color of the bathroom tiles in the Empire State Building isn't a concern for the rest of the world - only the people who want to take up space in the building should worry.

And, there isn't just one manager - there's 55,000 of them who are working to ensure that the bathroom tiles are just as perfect as they can possibly get them given the feedback they've received from, <gasp>, their customers ;)

While they *could* change the tiles based on the opinions of those who will never desire to *use* the tiles, it would be a bit of a waste of time and resources.

If somebody came to your home, for example, glanced through the window, spotted your ugly shower curtain, and then came to you and said, "Hi - I was just passing by. Although I don't have any real interest in ever using your shower curtain, I was still wondering if you might like to consult with the rest of the neighborhood on what *we* feel might be a more appropriate curtain for *you*," what would you do?

That’s right – you’d tell that person to shove it up his ass!
February 12, 2004 7:34 PM
 

Joe Grenier said:

Really, Rory, you'd save a helluva lot of bandwidth if you'd please just <gasp> in binary.
February 12, 2004 7:50 PM
 

Rory said:

"Really, Rory, you'd save a helluva lot of bandwidth if you'd please just <gasp> in binary."

Good point, Joe.

0gasp

- Rory

P.S. You're a dickhead! 0gasp!
February 12, 2004 8:13 PM
 

Richard Tallent said:

My comments got too long, so I posted them to my blog... basically, Rory is right, but XAML still needs work...

http://www.tallent.us/CommentView.aspx?guid=18c8613d-08b8-4a1f-b839-f30bcc40a9c9
February 12, 2004 8:19 PM
 

chrootstrap said:

"If somebody came to your home, for example, glanced through the window, spotted your ugly shower curtain, and then came to you and said, "Hi - I was just passing by. Although I don't have any real interest in ever using your shower curtain, I was still wondering if you might like to consult with the rest of the neighborhood on what *we* feel might be a more appropriate curtain for *you*," what would you do? "

Haha.. sounds like the typical neighbor hood association around here. Seriously! :)
February 12, 2004 8:29 PM
 

Rory said:

Dom -

"Haha.. sounds like the typical neighbor hood association around here. Seriously!"

That's exactly what I had in mind while creating the analogy :)

I was thinking, "God, I'm glad I don't have to live in a place like *this* <type, type, type>..."
February 12, 2004 8:32 PM
 

sirshannon said:

Dear RebelGeek,
PLEASE go to Longhorn Blogs, find the first over-blown, over-rated, over-complicated XAML example (i.e., anything with more than a single button like your XAML2 example above) and convert this to your version of the future and show the fools how right you are.
Or realize what a fool you are.

Doing this should prove one or the other.
February 12, 2004 11:42 PM
 

RebelGeekz said:

I don't pretend to be right, I just defend my view and my ideal of an easier world.

Here,

http://geekswithblogs.net/rebelgeekz/archive/2004/02/12/2080.aspx

Perhaps I am just a dreamer...

February 13, 2004 3:06 AM
 

Joe Grenier said:

Rebel,
Let's look at your example in light of your own criteria:

1. XAML = markup
2. World w/o XAML = no markup

*You can easily read what you've done (#1 sucks)*
- In my opinion, yours falls short on this one.
You really think this is easier to understand:

"Ellipse(70,75,30,50)..."

than this?:

"<Ellipse
CenterX='70' CenterY='75'
RadiusX='30' RadiusY='50' ...
/>"

Sorry, we can't all be as intuitive as you in gleaning the meaning of function parameters.

*You can easily code it by hand (#1 sucks)*
- I'm not seeing this either. Is it that much easier to type curly braces than angle brackets? Not that I'm going to do much XAML hand coding once I have VS.NET Orcas. Sure I'll want to tweak it, but that's different.

*You can easily drag and drop (indifferent)*
- Agreed.

*You can easily incorporate it in your language of choice (#1 sucks)*
- You mean if I can get the compiler vendor to incorporate it into my language of choice? I tried compiling your examples with the C# and VB.NET compilers. Not there yet. Maybe in COBOL.NET...

*Less bandwidth consumption (#1 sucks)*
- OK, I won't send my Longhorn UI over the wire if you don't.

You may now commence with the ad hominem attacks.
February 13, 2004 5:23 AM
 

Marcus said:

Oh the good old ad homiem. Your argument is flawed because you're fat and you smell.

:-)
February 16, 2004 6:14 PM
 

fcharp said:

RebelGeekz: "I don't pretend to be right, I just defend my view and my ideal of an easier world"...

Beyond all the syntactical mud-slinging and pontification that I have seen in this blog, I was quite interested in Rebel's SVG/XAML clock example (As an aspiring passé dickhead, I like to go back to basics and look at listings). The SVG listing is shorter and does not require 5000 pages of MS API to understand.

But I'm picking at peripheral noise.

The real problem I see is that I will have one heck of a problem when I try to port my nice XAML Bejeweled game to Symbian, Palm OS, QNX or other mobile platforms. Whereas I can actually do that with SVG/SMIL...

That may not be news, but it is reality. Mobile devices are multiplying a lot faster than desk boxes. And -- right or wrong -- the mobile operators and device manufacturers have firmly resisted to entrust their OS future to MS.

Like many things they did in the past, MS is doing a great job with XAML. But an unconditional acceptance of XAML (and the corollary parrochial rejection of anything else) says that you enjoy serving one only master. (BTW, you don't have to be so obsequious and kiss his ass as lavishly as some of you do -- balance, balance...)

Fcharp
February 17, 2004 9:41 PM
 

Paul Tiseo said:

This thread begs for someone to write a XAML2XUL tranforming engine. Then, you guys could be reduced to just insulting yourselves without the thin veneer of a technical discussion getting in the way... :)
April 20, 2004 3:30 PM
 

Billy Bob Willy said:

wtf are ms upto, inept bunch o' nobs (btw posting this in response to find out they've butchered the C++ language by dumping keywords in it e.g. interface, have they heard of ISO? buck o' dickheads).
June 27, 2005 2:54 PM
 

Billy Bob Willy said:

And another thing wtf is it with the name for the windows. 'Longhorn' ?

Well i'm gonna create my own OS and i'm gonna code name it 'Widedick' or 'Hugecock' :)

Well let me tell you Billy G my horn is wider and longer than yours :)
June 27, 2005 5:59 PM
 

The Bee said:

Asta la Vista windows!
September 6, 2005 5:13 PM
 

TrackBack said:

Rory on XAML
February 11, 2004 8:45 PM
 

TrackBack said:

.NET Happenings #2
February 11, 2004 11:06 PM
 

TrackBack said:

XAML by itself is not that interesting!
February 12, 2004 7:12 PM
New Comments to this post are disabled

About Rory

I *own* this site, you loser.